Legacy Recon Report
Interview with Jake Shannon, Founder of Scientific Wrestling

Jake Shannon & The Scientific Wrestling Movement
Interview by Steve Loftin
Posted July 10, 2005



fightinglegacy.com: What is your background in combat athletics?

Jake Shannon: I started wrestling when I was 4 years old, thanks to my mother. I continued wrestling as a kid and did boxing and Tae Kwon Do recreationally as a teenager. I earned my blackbelt in Tae Kwon Do at 16.

16 was a rough year for me. I was diagnosed with cancer, Hodgekin's lymphoma, and my father suffered two massive heart attacks in the same month. Needless to say, chemo and radiation treatments kept me from wrestling practice so that kind of killed my high school and hence, my college wrestling hopes.

In college I trained in judo at the Boulder YMCA. My coach there, Bernd Busch, was a U.S. senior nationals champ and showed me a few really neat tricks that got me hooked on grappling. That was right when the Gracie Jiu-Jitsu marketing machine started to gain steam. In fact, you can see me in the audience at UFC 2 in Denver, sitting there with the Gracie family. A small handful of Colorado enthusiasts like myself pooled our money together and flew in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu men like Pedro Sauer, Kaseka Muniz, and Ricardo Murgel to teach us.

Back in 1994 it was very much an odd thing to do. The Bruce Lee movie starring Jason Scott Lee had just come out so I remember I was amped up to test myself against multiple styles. I had many successful, informal “no-rules” challenge matches against larger and stronger collegiate wrestlers and kung-fu and aikido practitioners, thanks in large part to the confidence that a skinny, young Royce Gracie instilled in me.

I then moved to San Francisco and trained at Carley Gracie’s academy for a few years.

I attended the first Team Quest Fight Club MMA camp (back in 2003) and picked up some great stuff from Randy Couture, Matt Lindland, B.J. Penn, Robert Follis, Nate Quarry, and Ryan Schultz.

When I lived close enough I went to Gokor’s dojo in North Hollywood. Gokor and Gene have both showed me some very great, high-percentage maneuvers.

Karl Gotch, Danny Hodge, Billy Wicks, Dick Cardinal, Yoshiaki Fujiwara, and Frank Shamrock have all showed me stuff as well that I use and teach to this day. I consider myself very blessed to have had these opportunities and I have tried to make the knowledge available to other people that are sincerely interesting in grappling and catch wrestling in particular.

This year I hope to learn from Erik Paulson and Josh Barnett. Both have proven competitive records and have been positive exponents of Catch Wrestling.

fightinglegacy.com: How has this shaped your outlook on different fighting systems and types of training?

Jake Shannon: Well, it has left me with a deep respect for competition as a means to truth.

fightinglegacy.com: I believe in that as well. To me it means that you have to test yourself under the most realistic circumstances possible to see if your game is where it should be. I don't think it relies so much on the actual "system" of fighting, but where you are with your training on an individual level. This shows you where you need to improve and offers opportunity for constant refinement. Is this what you meant or do you have a different outlook?

Jake Shannon: Exactly, it keeps you humble and plugged into reality.

fightinglegacy.com: When did you first become aware of CACC?

Jake Shannon: Sometime around 1999 I became involved with the Cauliflower Alley Club, a great organization dedicated to honoring professional wrestling. I began to learn about legends like Karl Gotch, Yoshiaki Fujiwara, Danny Hodge, Dick Cardinal, Red Bastien, Billy Wicks, Frankie Cain, Billy Robinson, etc. Through these men I have been fortunate to learn the history and techniques of real Catch Wrestling. Since then I have single-mindedly focused my training on Catch Wrestling and grappling.

fightinglegacy.com: What spurned your interest to become more involved in CACC?

Jake Shannon: I liked the brutality, the efficiency, I liked the idea of being a part of great historical tradition.

fightinglegacy.com: I think it's interesting that you have some experience in pro wrestling, Could you tell us how that came about?

Jake Shannon: To be frank, I was nursing a neck injury from grappling with a collegiate wrestler that out-weighed me by about 50lbs. He secured a front-headlock and cranked it hard. He basically put me in traction and my C5 and C7 vertebrae popped out of place. I thought pro-wrestling would be easier on my body that submission grappling. Boy was I wrong!

fightinglegacy.com: What were some memorable experiences you had in pro wrestling?

Jake Shannon: I decided to try my hand at professional wrestling in 1998 and had some modest success. I was the first “gai-jin” invited to train in Lucha Libre at Ultimo Dragon’s Gym with his T2P group in Naucalpan, Mexico. I’ve been booked on shows with Roddy Piper, Jake Roberts, Jimmy Snuka. I was one of the first graduates to come out of the Pro-Wrestling Iron Dojo run by Pro-Wrestling Noah wrestlers Mike Modest and Donovan Morgan too. I guess the high point was wrestling Vampiro at The Toronto Skydome during the 2001 Van’s Warped Tour.

fightinglegacy.com: Why did you get out of it?

Jake Shannon: Many reasons really. First, I hated the attitude of “My fake pro-wrestling is better than your fake pro-wrestling” that permeates the Indy level of pro-wrestling. I mean I never really had the “look” of a pro-wrestler, I am tall and lankey but I could tie all the guys in knots when I could get them to actually wrestle.

Second, I don’t like traveling. I quit after spending the summer on a tour bus for the Warped Tour. I like my own bed. I like my own bathroom.

Third, the pay sucks for the amount of risk you take. I was getting paid around $150 a day during the Warped Tour to wrestle two matches a day in the sun, every day. I was so banged up and sore all the time from taking bumps, it just wasn’t worth it. They asked me to tour Europe and I declined.

fightinglegacy.com: You recently received your level 2 certification in Shamrock Submission fighting. Why did you choose that particular system?

Jake Shannon: Frank Shamrock’s fighting record is amazing and he is a really skilled teacher/coach. In the credits of one of his instructional DVDs he credits Funaki and Suzuki as his grappling teachers. Karl Gotch always told me Suzuki was one of the most amazing grapplers he ever trained so I felt an automatic kinship for Frank’s methods.

fightinglegacy.com: Frank's grappling style tends to lean a bit more toward CACC. Given his start in Pancrase, it would seem that he is familiar with it's roots. Is he familiar with what you are doing to expand CACC in the USA?

Jake Shannon: I mentioned it briefly to him. He thought the idea of incorporating pins into a submission grappling contest was cool.

fightinglegacy.com: Has he offered any input on it?

Jake Shannon: Not so much, but I haven’t really bugged him about it either, lol.

fightinglegacy.com: LOL...I can understand that. You've also had the chance to do some training with Gene Lebell, who is truly one of the greats. How does his style blend CACC and the Judo that he is so famous for?

Jake Shannon: Gene is great. I had the honor of presenting the Cauliflower Alley Club martial artist award this year with him as well (to Canadian Champion Mike Martelle). Gene and Gokor’s system is really cool insofar as it integrates Catch with jacketed grappling styles like Judo and Sambo. If you are ever in Los Angeles, you have to stop by their dojo. Truly great guys.

fightinglegacy.com: Speaking of jacketed grappling styles, it seems that a lot of people who train in jacketed grappling arts have also recognized the efficiency that CACC has within its techniques. What do you attribute this to?

Jake Shannon: Well, there are only so many ways to manipulate the human body, jacket or no jacket. It is awesome when people that use old Catch ideas credit the source.

fightinglegacy.com: In your opinion, what does CACC offer that other martial arts do not?

Jake Shannon: In a broad philosophical sense, I believe that the strengths of American Catch As Catch Can wrestling mirror some of the values of American culture; hard-work, science, competitiveness, diversity, efficiency, and ingenuity. Not saying that other martial arts don’t offer this but there is just something special about Catch and the tradition in which it was born.

Maybe a case could be made that the bastard step-child of catch, "Sports Entertainment" (i.e. Professional “Wrestling”) embodies some of the less savory aspects of American culture like arrogance, poor sportsmanship, deceit, show-boating, etc. (That is just a joke, please no emails)

fightinglegacy.com: Why is fitness & conditioning so important for CACC?

Jake Shannon: It is simple, given two opponents of equal size and skill, the better conditioned wrestler will win. Now more so than ever, technique is easy to come by. Conditioning is not. You can’t improve your conditioning by sitting and watching a DVD.

fightinglegacy.com: How do your personal beliefs about CACC differ from other notable exponents of the art?

Jake Shannon: Wow, that is a very diplomatic way of asking. I’d say that there are a few great exponents of Catch-based styles right now that are worth looking into: Frank Shamrock, Josh Barnett, Erik Paulson, Gene LeBell and Gokor, Billy Wicks and Johnny Husky to name a few.

Without naming names, there are two with whom I do decidedly differ; one uses catch to pad his wallet, the other to pump up his ego. I am interested in neither, I want to promote real Catch and bring it back to the level of popularity it enjoyed at the beginning of the 20th Century.

fightinglegacy.com: Most people don't realize that in the early 20th century, CACC was huge in American wrestling circles. This is mainly attributed to the influx of immigrants coming to our country and bringing in pieces of different wrestling styles from all over the world. Do you see a resurgence of this in the aspect that a lot of people who began in other grappling styles will adopt CACC and bring the techniques from their parent art with them?

Jake Shannon: I sure hope so! That is the only way to improve. As Karl Gotch tells me, "Adapt and improvise!"

fightinglegacy.com: Do you think that this will be good for the art of CACC?

Jake Shannon: Of course, but this means that people must actually play and compete under Catch rules... Be sure to check out the locater that my friend and fellow Catch practicioner, Bill Cogswell put up at www.catchwrestling.net.

fightinglegacy.com: Tell us about Lions Share Ventures and the Scientific Wrestling Research Group. What are the main focuses of these entities?

Jake Shannon: Well in order to bring real Catch back, it is going to take some clever financing. That is what Lion’s Share Ventures is about. Not a lot of people know but I actually have a Master of Science in Financial Mathematics designation. Understanding business models and risk have helped me in making the right decisions.

The Scientific Wrestling Research Group is just the informal name I have given to the handful of people that have lent their knowledge to any particular Scientific Wrestling project.

fightinglegacy.com: You seem to have developed a winning program with the Scientific Wrestling Online website. What factors helped you to succeed with this idea?

Jake Shannon: A passion for my craft. I eat, sleep and breath wrestling. Ask anyone that knows me.

fightinglegacy.com: The advisory board of Scientific Wrestling Online is like a who's who of wrestling greats. How did you come to be involved with all of these great athletes?

Jake Shannon: Luck mostly. They are great men that have taken an interest in what I wanted to accomplish.

fightinglegacy.com: How did you get the idea to release the Encyclopedia series?

Jake Shannon: Well at the time, I was looking for something like it but it didn’t exist. I figured if I was interested, there must be others, so I spent the time and money to put it together. It was a small risk but it seemed to light a spark that is now an inferno!

fightinglegacy.com: You have also produced books pertaining to old school Jiu Jitsu and Pugilism? What are your involvements with these arts and why did you decide to publish these books?

Jake Shannon: Well the Bare-Knuckle Boxing has been an interest since my teenage days boxing. The Vintage Jiu-Jitsu was inspired by my brief exposure to Bernd Busch, Gene LeBell and Gokor and a few of the Gracies.

fightinglegacy.com: In addition, you offer many products on your website that can't be found anywhere else. Particularly, you have instructional DVDs from Gotch and Fujiwara. Why did you decide to release them?

Jake Shannon: To be honest, I didn’t think it would be fair to hog them for myself or to study them and then re-release them starring yours truly. Besides, that’s been done already by those that shall remain nameless.

fightinglegacy.com: Was the process difficult?

Jake Shannon: Yes.

fightinglegacy.com: What factors made it so difficult? Was it a production issue?

Jake Shannon: Each one brings it's own particular difficulty. I think the most difficult process is coordinating and managing the entire process while having a full day job and trying to have a life and train too. This has been a little stressful, but a blessing too.

fightinglegacy.com: Are there any new products from your company that we should be looking out for?

Jake Shannon: Well of course we are going to keep digging into the good stuff and bring you the best in instructional and fight material. We are updating Wade Schalles' "LEGAL PAIN" pinning instructional this summer. We should have volume 2 of both the "Pro-Wrestling Fujiwara-Gumi" and "REAL BKB: Fights of the Irish Travellers" ready soon too.

I am probably most excited about the launch of our first fitness product, The Macebell. Imagine a Frankenstein hybrid between the Kettlebell and the Clubbell. I tried it when I went to Karl's last Christmas and was convinced of it's efficacy. It comes from Indian and is part of the Hindu wrestler's Club Swinging tradition. The very same manufacturer that makes the Kettlebell has been wanting to release a Macebell, so when I approached them with my designs, they jumped all over it. Hopefully we should have it ready for Christmas 2007.

fightinglegacy.com: For those interested, what would be the best resources from which to obtain info about the history and sport of true CACC?

Jake Shannon: ScientificWrestling.com, that is our mandate. Also, when I was asked to host a free catch forum on MMA.TV, I asked longtime Catch proponent Mark "Scuffler" Jones and Catch historian Nathan Hatton if they'd pitch in. It is a great resource too if you can handle the occasional flame war.

fightinglegacy.com: What is your ultimate goal with Lions Share Ventures and Scientific Wrestling Online?

Jake Shannon: To promote real CACC wrestling through competitions, clinics, DVDs, books, and interactive forums.

fightinglegacy.com: You're involved with many facets in the resurgence of CACC in the United states. Can you give us a bit more details on how you're trying to promote CACC?

Jake Shannon: Well I am currently working on a promotion called Pro-Catch Wrestling™. Entrance into the Pro league can be secured by the regional winners of upcoming annual King of Catch Wrestling Tournament™.

I have been trying to build awareness of competitive Catch Wrestling by offering all the material on Scientific Wrestling Online to inspire people to start their own Catch Wrestling clubs that operate under the rules of Catch Wrestling (i.e., win via pin or submission, no points). That is also the purpose of the Los Angeles Toe-Hold Club. It is free and we practice under the rules of Catch Wrestling.

This is also the purpose in offering clinics by legendary wrestlers like Mark Schultz, Wade Schalles, Fujiwara, and Dick Cardinal. We want people to learn from the best, then take what they learned back to their clubs and practice for tournament play. Pins and submissions all the way!

fightinglegacy.com: Tell us a bit more about the Pro Catch promotion and the King of Catch Wrestling tournament? What gave you the idea to for this?

Jake Shannon: Honestly, Catch Wrestling has suffered a crisis of confidence here in the states over the last few years. There have been a number of people with questionable credentials using the name of Catch Wrestling toward dishonorable ends. Competition is the great leveller, it will allow people to see who knows what and who doesn't. It is simple solution to all the nonsense that has been going on lately.

fightinglegacy.com: And the Toe Hold Club? What got that started?

Jake Shannon: Well, you have to practice if you are going to get better. I couldn't find any one really offering grappling with both submission and pins, the old Catch rules, so I started the Toe-Hold Club.

fightinglegacy.com: If I recall, the Toe Hold Club was actually the name adopted by a group of old time catchwrestlers in the early 20th century. Is that right?

Jake Shannon: That's right.

fightinglegacy.com: What made you want to use that name?

Jake Shannon: The Toe-Hold Club is the name an old time wrestler named Frank Cain wrestled with as a young man. It is an homage to Frank. He is a friend of mine.

fightinglegacy.com: What do you believe the general martial arts community has to say about CACC? Do you think it is accepted as a legitimate martial art/combat sport?

Jake Shannon: There have been several unsavory characters lately using Catch to make them money or gratify their ego and Catch’s reputation has suffered. I think we are at a turning point. People are beginning to study the history of grappling and understand what Catch is.

fightinglegacy.com: Do you think that this opinion will change over time?

Jake Shannon: We are doing our best to help facilitate that change, hopefully sooner rather than later. The key is to have people actually playing under the rules of Catch wrestling.

fightinglegacy.com: Do you feel like CACC has been overlooked only here in America, or is it a worldwide issue?

Jake Shannon: It is weird. I think Catch has been overlooked because of lies and deceits perpetuated by promoters and wrestlers in the early 20th Century. The fixing of matches spelled the end for catch. It is what people in the pro-wrestling business used to call "Kayfabe". We want to put integrity above profit and give Catch the respect it deserves. Not that there is anything is wrong with profit, we just want to put honesty first.

fightinglegacy.com: What can be done to build up CACC on a worldwide scale?

Jake Shannon: Simply wrestling under CACC rules and holding people to a high standard of honesty. We had people from as far as Sweden at the Fujiwara/Cardinal Submission Master Clinic in February.

fightinglegacy.com: How can people help to do this on a local level?

Jake Shannon: Start a Catch Club. If you don’t know how, email me. I can point you to some great resources!

fightinglegacy.com: Is there a way for people to earn a certified ranking in CACC like in other martial arts?

Jake Shannon: Well, one of the things that attracted me to Catch Wresting is the lack of seniority or belt-rank. It is all put out on the mat, period.

However, in direct response to the Catch Wrestling crisis of confidence and the absence of a competition, there is a real need for an objective system of quality control provided by disinterested third party.

It is a catch-22 (no pun intended) really, we need Catch competition to provide a test of people's skills but no one really has the skills or a systematic way of learning catch so no one will compete.

To establish a baseline set of skills needed, Scientific Wrestling is introducing The SW Certified Catch Wrestler designation. It will provide a system for learning, practicing, and coaching for Catch Wrestling. The culmination of study for the designation with be The SW Catch Wrestler Audit. The SW Catch Wrestler Audit will be presided over by myself and two members of our advisory board, to ensure that they actually can wrestle and coach Catch wrestlers.

So in short, yes there will be a certification. It is not a blackbelt or anything like that, but if you meet someone that has earned The SW Certified Catch Wrestler designation, you can damn know that they will know Catch wrestling.

fightinglegacy.com: You seem to keep busy with the promotion of your business, but you also hold down a day job as well. What kind of work do you do?

Jake Shannon: I am the Financial Modeling Manager for large Financial Services company.

fightinglegacy.com: Has your career helped you in your business endeavors? How so?

Jake Shannon: Yes, it has given me insights into business and entrepreneurship in general.

fightinglegacy.com: What type of training do you do to keep yourself in shape?

Jake Shannon: I do the routine Karl Gotch laid out. I mix it up with Clubbells, Kettlebells, AB Bands, and I try to wrestle twice a week at least. I will get on the elliptical any chance I get.

fightinglegacy.com: With your busy schedule, how do you find the time or motivation to train?

Jake Shannon: Sometimes it is hard. It is all about time management and training with a goal in mind. If I am just coaching I won’t train as hard. If I have an event to wrestle for, I will train appropriately.

fightinglegacy.com: What things do you like to do to relax?

Jake Shannon: Relax? What’s that?

fightinglegacy.com: LOL...like millions of Americans nationwide, huh? No time for fun.

Jake Shannon: Doesn't seem like it lately. Heck, the first week of June, I moved, started a new job, got married, and presented at The Cauliflower Alley Club. There are no signs of slowing down in the immediate future.

fightinglegacy.com: Now for a few short but sweet questions....What's the last good movie you saw?

Jake Shannon: Nacho Libre! I saw Fray Tormenta in person at the Cauliflower Alley Club reunion this year. That was cool!

fightinglegacy.com: Last good book you read?

Jake Shannon: I don’t read fiction. Here is what is sitting on my desk, “Independent Component Analysis”, “Factor Analysis: Statistical Methods and Practical Issues”, and “Applied Management Science and Spreadsheet Modeling”. Exciting stuff, eh?

fightinglegacy.com: LOL...I guess. If you know what that stuff means, of course. I'd probably use those books for coffee table decorations. You know, so people would think I'm smart. =)

Jake Shannon: That's my secret, you found me out. I am not really all that smart, just persistent. Persistence prevails where all else fails. Oh yeah, I am reading lots of parenting books to prepare for our baby in January. Speaking of, congratulations to you on the birth of your daughter!

fightinglegacy.com: Thanks, Jake. I really appreciate that. All my parenting time has been spent raising sons. A daughter is something new to my wife and I, but we are enjoying the experience so far. No worries though, she'll be armlocking her brothers in a few years! =) Speaking of armbars...who is your Favorite MMA fighter?

Jake Shannon: Then? Sakuraba. Now? Josh Barnett and Gomi.

fightinglegacy.com: Favorite food?

Jake Shannon: Sushi.

fightinglegacy.com: Favorite athlete from any sport?

Jake Shannon: Mark Schultz. Danny Hodge was pretty amazing too. I call him Paleo-MMA. Guys like Hodge and the "combo-men" from the carnivals were doing MMA way back in the day. By the way, a combo-man is a carnival worker that can wrestle and box.

fightinglegacy.com: What type of music do you like?

Jake Shannon: Are you going to start a fake Jake Shannon Myspace page or something? Just kidding, I like classical, industrial, some hip-hop, and punk rock. Mr. Bungle, Fugazi, Digital Underground, Stevie Nicks...

fightinglegacy.com: LOL...If you had the chance to train with anyone in the world, living or dead, who would you choose to train with and why?

Jake Shannon: Tom Jenkins because I think he was the toughest and best Catch Wrestler to ever live.

fightinglegacy.com: Well, that about wraps it up. I want to thank you for the interview, Jake. It's been a priviledge.

Jake Shannon: Thank you, Steve! If your readers have any questions, please have them contact me at training@scientificwrestling.com